Token Ring, Ethernet

[Matthew G. Marsh]

On Sat, 8 Dec 2001, Jim Fleming wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Matthew G. Marsh" <mgm@paktronix.com>
> To: "Søren Kent Jensen" <soren@familie-jensen.dk>
> Cc: <frank.moeller@GONICUS.de>; <netfilter@lists.samba.org>
> > >
> > > Bridging between Ethernet and Token-Ring is IMPOSSIBLE.
> > Wrong. It is called transparent bridging and it has been done since the '80s.
>
> The entire Token Ring vs. Ethernet battle was a long period and wasted
> many hours of people's lives.

mmmm - yes.

> You fundamentally had IEEE hardware people,
> with little or no understanding of Computer Science concepts of Data Structures,
> Processes, Objects or Routing, focused on wiring topologies and completely
> missing the big picture goal of having a large seemless ocean of communicating
> objects, with methods and messages glueing things together. Meanwhile, the
> Internet Protocol people were living in their world of 20-byte IPv4 Headers,
> attempting to stay independent of the media used to transport the packets
> (messages). Despite their attempts, ARP entered the picture, to turn the
> glorious broadcast-oriented Ethernet into point-to-point (NIC-to-NIC)
> connections, and 32-bit IP addresses got woven into that ARP negotiation.

uh-huh - spoken like a true programmer with no knowledge of electronics in
reality. BTW - Transparent Bridging basically only changes the bitorder of
the packet headers.

> People assumed that only public 32-bit addresses could be used in that ARP
> negotiation, but then people realized that in order to free themselves from the
> ARP, Ethernet, Token-Ring and outside-the-IP-header swamp, they could
> sacrifice so-called private addresses, such as 10.x.x.x to the ARP swamp.
> That at least gets the NIC cards talking, and then software in the stacks can
> then once-again get back to the business of building the ocean of communicating
> objects. IPv6 has of course been hopelessly pulled into the IEEE swamp and
> appears to be headed down the same path as IPv4. Linux developers are in a
> very good situation to avoid the hardware swamps, and to work at a level where
> their software will live on beyond the useless debates about how to wire LANs.

Uh-huh.

> This may help...
> http://www.dot-biz.com/IPv4/Tutorial/

Maybe you should try showing how we will do this wonderful communication.
Like perhaps a NIC design or are you just going to run wires between
everyone's PCI busses - oh wait PCI is hoplessly stuck in the IEEE
swamp... sigh. People like you used to be the bane of my existance back
when Ethernet first started gaining existance...

> The Netfilter Project: Packet Mangling for Linux 2.4
> http://netfilter.samba.org

Uh-huh - tell you what - why don't you read "Policy Routing with Linux"
first then we will talk....

> Jim Fleming
> http://www.IPv8.info
> IPv16....One Better !!
> http://www.ddj.com/articles/search/search.cgi?q=fleming
> Oct93: The C+@ Programming Language
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Matthew G. Marsh" <mgm@paktronix.com>
> To: "Søren Kent Jensen" <soren@familie-jensen.dk>
> Cc: <frank.moeller@GONICUS.de>; <netfilter@lists.samba.org>
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2001 9:20 AM
> Subject: Re: broadcasts
>
>
> > On Wed, 5 Dec 2001, [iso-8859-15] Søren Kent Jensen wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Frank
> > >
> > > Bridging between Ethernet and Token-Ring is IMPOSSIBLE.
> > > And I mean IMPOSSIBLE. You can only route between 2 different network
> > > topologies.
> >
> > Wrong. It is called transparent bridging and it has been done since the
> > '80s. Linux does not do this but that is purely because noone ever wrote
> > the neccesary code. If you look around you can pick up old IBM or Proteon
> > equipment to do this. Most of that equipment was built in 87 or so...
> >
> > > As I see it, there are 2 solutions
> > > 1.    Make ther Linux box answer the broadcast from the cash desk, giving it
> > > the informations needed to communicate with the NT server. (By BOOTP or
> > > DHCP)
> > > 2.    Put a Token-Ring card into the NT server.
> > >
> > > On a Cisco router you can set up a 'helper address'. This will make the
> > > router forward BOOTP and DHCP requests to an specified address.
> > > I dont know if this is possible on Linux.
> >
> > Cisco with bridging code will transparent bridge between TR and Ethernet.
> > But most Ciscos sold in the last 5 or so years do not include bridging
> > code.
> >
> > > Regards
> > > Søren Kent Jensen
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Frank Moeller" <frank.moeller@GONICUS.de>
> > > To: <netfilter@lists.samba.org>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 12:15 PM
> > > Subject: broadcasts
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > I have the following problem. I have two different networks, a token ring
> > > and
> > > > an ethernet network. They should reach each other though a linux box with
> > > > kernel 2.4 and iptables. In the token ring network I have a cash desk that
> > > > has to update database entries on a NT server. The NT server is part of
> > > the
> > > > ethernet network.
> > > > The unconfiguered cash desk sends broadcast requests to receive its
> > > > configuration from the NT server. So if the NT box is part of the token
> > > ring
> > > > network there is no problem. But now I have to migrate the NT from token
> > > ring
> > > > to ethernet (the NT should do some more jobs for clients in the ethernet
> > > than
> > > > serving cash desks only). So for the configured cash desks I realize a
> > > kind
> > > > of port forwarding to reach the NT box. So far so good.
> > > > But now there is the problem, that new cash boxes are not able to reach
> > > the
> > > > NT via broadcast to be configured automatically.
> > > > Is there a way to solve this broadcast problem.
> > > > Ok, ok, the simplest way is to equip the NT with an additional token ring
> > > > card and let it act as a gateway between the token ring and ethernet
> > > network.
> > > > But the NT should only be part of the ethernet network.
> > > > Another way is perhaps to let the linux box act as a bridge. But I have no
> > > > idea to realize bridging between ethernet and token ring.
> > > > Is there a way to solve this problem?
> > > > Any help is appreciated, so thanks in advance
> > > >
> > > > Frank Moeller
> > > >
> > >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------
> > Matthew G. Marsh,  President
> > Paktronix Systems LLC
> > 1506 North 59th Street
> > Omaha  NE  68104
> > Phone: (402) 932-7250 x101
> > Email: mgm@paktronix.com
> > WWW:  http://www.paktronix.com
> > --------------------------------------------------
> >
>

--------------------------------------------------
Matthew G. Marsh,  President
Paktronix Systems LLC
1506 North 59th Street
Omaha  NE  68104
Phone: (402) 932-7250 x101
Email: mgm@paktronix.com
WWW:  http://www.paktronix.com
--------------------------------------------------